Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
General
I thought I would mention that, overall, this is a well-designed page. Free ringtones Sensor/ZSpinal 01:24, 20 Nov 2004
Shouldn't "West Philadelphia" be listed as one of the city neighbourhoods? It seems bizarre to me to have "University City" and not "West Philadelphia", especially given the history of the neighbourhood. Majo Mills Flying fish/Flying fish 03:06, 20 Dec 2004
What's up with deleting the names of Philadelphians that you haven't heard of? As an
example, Ed Bacon is a prominent and well respected urban designer, author of "Design
of Cities" which is still taught in architecture schools and has been influential in
the urban landscape of many cities. I understand that his son, Kevin, has appeared in some movies. Ed Bacon had much more to do with what philadelphia is like today than a cute movie actor who happened to be born there. I'd think that when discussing a major
urban area, someone who had half a century worth of influence on the design of the city is worth listing, more so than a sports player or a musician or an actor.
Images
The picture captioned "Center City Philadelphia" consists of a road with a few buildings in the distance. BO-RING!!! Is this really the most picturesque view anyone could come up with? Apart from anything else the picture could have been taken anywhere that has roads and buildings. Can somebody please replace it with an image that is a) uniquely Philadelphian and b) nicer to look at? Mosquito ringtone Lee M/Lee M 02:04, 11 Oct 2003 ~
:I agree that the picture could be better, it seems rather overcast and drab, though that's how it really looks much of the time, but otherwise this picture does capture the distinctive, east-looking view of the Philly skyline, clearly showing One and Two Liberty Place, City Hall (with William Penn aloft), and so on, not just "a few buildings buildings." It's as distinctively Philadelphian as a NYC skyline shot showing the Empire State building and, formerly, the Twin Towers would be distinctively NYC. So I think it should stay until we get a nicer-looking skyline shot. Although it might indeed be good to have pictures of the Museum as well. There's already an old drawing of Independence Hall, having a new photograph would be redundant. Sabrina Martins 68.162.81.209/68.162.81.209 21:00, 16 Aug 2004
If you're looking for a less boring picture of Philly, why not find a shot of the Philly Museum of Art, or a short of the Rocky statue at the Spectrum, or a shot of Independence Hall? Nextel ringtones Alba/Alba 04:10, 14 Dec 2003
Organization of information
I don't agree with the separation of the lists from the article. The article is less comprehensive without the lists. Abbey Diaz WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 07:08, 13 Dec 2003
Just because the content on Philadelphia isn't all in one overlong page doesn't mean that it's not part of Wikipedia's coverage of Philadelphia. When a page gets very long, it benefits both readers and editors when subtopics and side discussions are broken off into their own page. Wikipedia works through interlinksthe more specific the subjects, the more useful the interlinks are.
For just one example of the benefit, the reason I broke off the lists was that I was looking at the Free ringtones Kevin Bacon entry, and looking at the "what links here" page. By separating Majo Mills List of famous Philadelphians, the "what links here" was changed to make the link to Bacon more specific. The relationship between Kevin Bacon and Philadelphia, as explained by "What links here", is that he is a famous Philadelphian. This is only obvious because the list was separated from the main content.
If Wikipedia was a paper encyclopedia, then it would be true that it would be a good idea to have all the information on Philadelphia organized linearly together.
But Wikipedia is not paper, and by moving subordinate or digressive content to a distinct page everyone benefits.
The Wikipedia coverage of Philadelphia is not only that which is at Mosquito ringtone Philadelphia, Pennsylvaniathe content at Sabrina Martins Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is a starting point. Of course everything needs to be interlinked. It's very true that
:Cingular Ringtones List of major companies in Philadephia/Major companies in Philadelphia include compliance may Aramark, a menstrual GlaxoSmithKline, and analytica was Pep Boys.
is a better way to interlink than
* losers pervs List of major companies in Philadelphia
But please don't wallenberg family The Cunctator/Agglomeration/reconsolidate text that has been separated from an entry of burdensome length. canada economy User:The Cunctator/The Cunctator 04:05, 14 Dec 2003
Its not length, but KB size that is the deciding factor on Wikipedia. After I restore the thing again, please do not touch the article until we are done with the debate. There is nothing more you can expand on "Sports Teams of Philadelphia", for instance, until you get into the teams themselves.
However, you CAN expand on ireland loves Center City Philadelphia, which IS a reasonable division. symbolism a WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 04:38, 14 Dec 2003
It is not KB size that is the deciding factor on Wikipedia, it is quality of the entry. See by venetians m:Wiki is not paper for numerous reasons why it is better to separate content than to merge it into one long entry. airport a The Cunctator/The Cunctator 05:25, 14 Dec 2003
:I agree with both of you, to an extent. This article is too long, but I believe convinced qumran The Cunctator/The Cunctator split it up into too small of chunks. I would be happy to mediate the situation if you so desire. next commissioner User:Noldoaran/—Noldoaran music occasionally User talk:Noldoaran/(Talk) 05:31, Dec 14, 2003
-
1.
I hate "Wiki is not paper" as an argument
:)
it's a truism
2. Nothing has been finalized. Stop touching the main article until we reach CONSENSUS with our peers on this.
allies quit WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:30, 14 Dec 2003
:I did not use "Wiki is not paper" as an argument. If I did so, that would be incorrect, as it is a truism, as Quinlan said. What I ''did'' say is "See nhl as m:Wiki is not paper for numerous reasons why it is better to separate content than to merge it into one long entry." I referred to a discussion, not a four-word truism. in venture The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
I do not appreciate the above out-of-context excerpt of my (frankly, offhand) comments on IRC as a sign of support for one point of view. It does not express my view on this article or this dispute. On IRC, I also said... well, I didn't say much else about why I don't like it as an argument, but I was in the middle of doing laundry at the time. Anyway, if I wanted to leave a comment on this article, I would have left a comment.
To be fair, I also told "Vicious]" (WhisperToMe):
Vicious]: losing your cool never helps
Because I think that is what was happening here, but WhisperToMe didn't quote me on that. For future reference, if you want me to comment on an article, please ''ask'' me next time. machines using Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 06:52, Dec 14, 2003
Yea, if the article does need to be split, we need to figure out what to take out and where to put it.
And Cunc, DO NOT REMOVE the lists until consensus is reached over this. summer zucker User:WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe
:Whisper: don't even revert his changes until you 2 come to an agreement, unless he stops discussing it here. tighten it Noldoaran/—Noldoaran islamic community User talk:Noldoaran/(Talk) 05:45, Dec 14, 2003
I removed the page protection. Sysops should not protect pages they are involved in editing. Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 05:58, Dec 14, 2003
:I protected it because Whisper TOLD ME TO STOP EDITING the page. My protection of it was an implicit agreement with that demand. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
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Whisper, There is no need whatsoever to shout at me. I had two reasons to separate the lists into separate entries:
# Because I believed the lists should be separate entries
# Because I believe the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania entry was too long, digressive, and interrupted by the frequent lists.
Whisper, you evidently disagree with the first, but agree with me that the entry is too long. Please break up the entry in a way you find acceptable.
Reversion without discussion of significant amounts of work which was done in a way in which you do not agree, but is not explicit vandalism, is rude because it takes minimal effort to revert, thus implying that the time and effort spent to do the work was of no worth to you.
But I will accept in good faith that you know of a better way to organize the content and that you find my arguments listed above completely unconvincing.
A proposal: If you fail to break up the entry within the next 24 hours, I will consider that you are unable to find a better way than what I did to break it up, and separate out the lists. I would be happy to work with you to do so if you can convince me why none of the lists merit separate entries.
Noldoaran, please tell me if you think this is a reasonable compromise. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
Instead of having a bunch of small lists, why not have a List of Philadelphia-related topics? Jiang/Jiang / User talk:Jiang/Talk 06:01, 14 Dec 2003
Cunc, you might wanna look at other city articles as an example. New York, New York doesn't have any uber-long lists taken out of it (except for the list of mayors), but information on specific neighborhoods go in specific articles. While the information general to New York is in the New York article, the specific stuff dealing with the actual neighborhoods are in that article.
A better idea, IMO, is to first try to pan off two of the images to the right so that the article doesnt appear to be so large. If the article is still too large, find a non-list section that is extremely well developed, put it in its own article, and then make a brief overview of that article in the main article.
Even better would simply to add content. Perhaps dig up information about which city rivalries Phillies maintain, what cultural practices exist around the city, a detailed look at the road network, and the like.
WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 06:38, 14 Dec 2003
:New York, New York also needs to have the lists redacted. Thanks for pointing that out. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:57, 14 Dec 2003
::I suggest coming up with a guideline for which lists should be split out before proceeding to avoid future edit wars. Some of the lists that were split off of Phila seem to be too short to warrant separate articles. Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 07:01, Dec 14, 2003
::Yea, perhaps if a certain list can be built on, as in all of the collective members of the list have something in common and can provide a detailed explanation of what they all have in common, perhaps it can be split off.
The Museum list of Houston, Texas has only one on it because the rest of the museums are located in the Houston museum district - the list on the main article excludes museum's in the main district. Perhaps the sites of interest list can be broken up and whatever neighborhoods the sites are, then they are listed there. The site will then be listed next to the neighborhood in the list of neighborhoods. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 07:38, 14 Dec 2003
As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. Wikipedia is not a list repository. Rather, the significant items in some category should be mentioned naturally within the text. For example:
:The '''20th century architecture of New York City''' includes numerous icons of architecture, most notably its striking skyscrapers.
:At the beginning of the century, the city was a center for the Beaux-Arts movement, with architects like Stanford White and Carrere and Hastings. New York's skyscrapers include the Flatiron Building (1902) where Fifth Avenue crosses Broadway at Madison Square, Cass Gilbert's Woolworth Building (1913) a neo-Gothic "Cathedral of Commerce" overlooking City Hall, the Chrysler Building (1929) the purest expression of the Art Deco skyscraper and the Empire State Building (1931) are all skyscraper icons. Modernist architect Raymond Hood and after World War II Lever House began the clusters of 'glass boxes' that transformed the more classic previous skyline of the 1930s. When the World Trade Center towers were completed in 1973 many felt them to be sterile monstrosities, but most New Yorkers became fond of "The Twin Towers" and after the initial horror for the loss of life in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks there came great sadness for the loss of the buildings.
is good;
'''20th century architecture of New York City''':
*Flatiron Building (1902)
*Woolworth Building (1913)
*Chrysler Building (1929)
*Empire State Building (1931)
*World Trade Center (1973)
is poor. Having long lists within the text of Wikipedia entries makes them worse, not better. If a list is too short to need its own page, it should not be written as a list. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 08:13, 14 Dec 2003
Now, that example is a good example of what to do.
Yet, stuff like "List of Philadelphians" or "list of movies filmed at this city" or "list of neighborhoods" (more comprehensive information can be put inside each neighborhood) shouldn't be moved. Sometimes a list and a bit of text (e.g. text explaining the types of industry in a city before listing all of the companies based in the city limits) work out together. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 08:51, 14 Dec 2003
No; lists within entries simply are poor. Specific examples of movies filmed in Philadelphia in a paragraph about such a topic is gooda bare list is bad.
Wikipedia is not a list repository. User:The Cunctator/The Cunctator
"List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms or persons ('''But, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic'''). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into Wikiquote, Wikipedia's sister project."
In this case, the lists are well associated with the topic (being the city itself) WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 23:11, 14 Dec 2003
WhisperToMe - the mention of New York is clearly in the context of cities. Using "New York City" as opposed to just "New York" is unnecessary. John Kenney/john 03:09, 9 May 2004
Oh, and one last thing - The point of using that format was to link to Massachusetts and New York. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 04:46, 13 May 2004
The states ''weren't'' linked to. And why do they need to be? John Kenney/john 05:42, 13 May 2004
Because one shouldn't have to click Boston to then click to Massachusetts when one could simply click Massachusetts. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 22:15, 13 May 2004
But Massachusetts isn't relevant to the article (at least at that point). Nor is New York state. John Kenney/john 05:12, 14 May 2004
Even if they are hardly relevant, it is not a problem to link to them. This is seen all the time on Wikipedia. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:32, 14 May 2004
But it is basically worthless, and ugly. I see no particularly strong reason to do so, and "this is seen all the time on Wikipedia" is not a very good reason. That would be a reason to create links to anything. John Kenney/john 05:36, 14 May 2004
Which is also done, John. Heck, if one figure hardly relevant to the topic in an article is mentioned, it gets linked. E.G. any mention of George W. Bush gets linked to just that - George W. Bush. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:46, 14 May 2004
But there ''is'' and ''was'' no mention of Massachusetts or New York State. There were just links to the cities, which were not piped. John Kenney/john 05:49, 14 May 2004
In the case of cities, Massachusetts and New York state CAN be mentioned, albiet '''only once'''. Also if other countries are involved, "United States" can be mentioned once. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:53, 14 May 2004
But why SHOULD they be mentioned? John Kenney/john 06:11, 14 May 2004
Most people I know of on Wikipedia would most likely say yes. I would too. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 06:18, 14 May 2004
I said ''why'' should they be mentioned. Also, please don't pretend to speak for other people. John Kenney/john 16:20, 14 May 2004
When mentioning United States cities, John, one almost always mentions the state on the first mention of the city! E.G. you don't write "The President went to Saint Louis" - You write "The President went to Saint Louis, Missouri", and then write "Saint Louis" after that. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 23:10, 14 May 2004
Not true, depending on context. Per AP style, these cities may stand alone:
In the U.S.: Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Hollywood, Honolulu, Houston, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New Orleans, New York, Oklahoma City, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, D.C.
Internationally: Beijing, Berlin, Djibouti, Geneva, Gibraltar, Guatemala City, Havana, Hong Kong, Jerusalem, Kuwait, London, Luxembourg, Macau, Mexico City, Monaco, Montreal, Moscow, Ottawa, Panama City, Paris, Quebec, Rome, San Marino, Singapore, Tokyo, Toronto, Vatican City.
Lukobe/Lukobe 23:35, 14 May 2004
:Thanks, that's really interesting. (It's a bit odd to see "Washington, D.C." in there, though after all, it DOES have the region name in already!) Marnanel/Marnanel 01:17, May 15, 2004
Note among those cities Boston and New York, the two cities in question. Thanks for the list, Lukobe. John Kenney/john 02:53, 15 May 2004
That threading was completely insane. I reverted it. John Kenney/john 04:55, 15 May 2004
Nick Berg
People from the suburbs of Philadelphia are often identified as being from there. I think Nick Berg should stay. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 00:34, 25 May 2004
:Yeah, OK. But... West Chester isn't really a suburb of Philadelphia. Ike9898/ike9898 16:55, May 25, 2004
Yeah, it's rather far out, isn't it? I think most Philadelphians would not consider someone from West Chester to be a Philadelphian. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 16:59, 25 May 2004
John, West Chester is also part of the Delaware Valley CMSA, as it is in Chester County. There are reports which say Berg is from Philadelphia (which are technically incorrect). Some Philadelphians may not consider him from the city, but outsiders tend to. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 18:41, 25 May 2004
Yes, that doesn't mean it's genuinely a suburb of Philadelphia. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 19:44, 25 May 2004
Again, it is considered a part of the CMSA as it is in Chester County, and Nick Berg himself said "I am from West Chester, Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia" in the decapitation video.
In addition, these sources identify him as from a Philadelphia suburb. It is somewhat far away, but then again, that's urban sprawl for you.
*http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/05/11/berg/
*http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-11-iraq-beheading_x.htm
*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3705409.stm
WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 20:38, 25 May 2004
The US Census isn't the be all and end all. According to the US census, Baltimore and Washington are in the same CMSA, so that one might then say that Harford County, Maryland is in the Washington area. Except that nobody says that. Obviously, the case with West Chester is somewhat different. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 22:19, 25 May 2004
That's because CMSA's can be divided into separate MSA's. For instance, the BWI area can be divided into "Washington", "Baltimore", and "Hagerstown" MSAs. The Philadelphia area can be divided into the "Philadelphia", "Atlantic City", and "Wilmington" areas. But Chester County is squarely in the "Philadelphia" MSA. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 22:23, 25 May 2004
:My last word on the subject. The man was not a philadelphian => shouldn't be in the list (he should be on the list of famous West Chestarians!). Or maybe we should start listing candians and mexicans as famous Americans. Who knows? This not important enough to fight over, but it seems pretty clear to me...Philadelphians are from Philadelphia...where's the confusion? Ike9898/ike9898 16:16, May 26, 2004
::People associate the man with Philadelphia, therefore he should be in the list of famous Philadelphians, with the note that he's actually from West Chester. We shouldn't list famous Canadians and Mexicans as famous Americans because nobody considers someone from Mexico City or Toronto to be from America. Lukobe/Lukobe 17:38, 26 May 2004
Center City
Why does it say downtown is "informally" known as "Center City?" That's all it is known as, and all the government literature and city codes refer to the downtown area as Center City. If it has any other name I don't know what it is, so perhaps the "informally" should go. There are of course Philly things that have informal names, such as the Market-Frankford line of SEPTA being informally known as "the El," but Center City is not one of them. 68.162.81.209/68.162.81.209 21:03, 16 Aug 2004
:You made a good argument. I would go ahead and change it if I were you. In case you are new to Wikipedia, you should know that it is ok to go ahead and make a change if you think it will improve the article. If a change is controversial, it might be important to get a consensus first, but I think in this case you could just make the change. Ike9898/ike9898 21:25, Aug 16, 2004
Cutting the Fat
I was looking threw the article, and besides it's over it's size limit i thought that it could be cleaned up a bit. Their are three sections that i believe need to be shortened, moved to their own article or both.
Philadelphia in film and television, i think i brief blurb about the citys importance in the are should be noted under a bigger section about the city's arts and culture, with the main part moving to it's own article.
Famous past and present Philadelphia residents, great list of people, but their problem i see it their are a lot that arent really known well outside of the Delaware valley, and if they are they a bit compartmentalized to their specialty. Propose moving to new article, so can be further expanded as needed, with listing on article of Philadelphians with a world/nationwide appeal, and a link to new article.
List of Philadelphia Neighborhoods, move to a new article with link from page.
Transportation, just kinda blurb it up and add a bit more to it, i.e. bridges, airport, port and stuff, and move to a new article to be expanded further.
Comment would be nice and is requested, for the mean time Ill abstain from any changes, but Ill start on the new articles. Boothy443 / User talk:Boothy443/comhrÚ 10:24, 29 Jan 2005
The "New" article are at Philadelphia in film and television, List of people from Philadelphia, List of Philadelphia Neighborhoods (which needs more cleanup, such asl linking the blurbs with hoods in seperate article), and Transportation in Philadelphia, if anyone wants to take a look, (fyi same as on page). I was also lookig at :Tag: Philadelphia, PA and noticed that that also needs to clean up as well, but i'll get around to that. Boothy443 / User talk:Boothy443/comhrÚ 10:49, 29 Jan 2005
I thought I would mention that, overall, this is a well-designed page. Free ringtones Sensor/ZSpinal 01:24, 20 Nov 2004
Shouldn't "West Philadelphia" be listed as one of the city neighbourhoods? It seems bizarre to me to have "University City" and not "West Philadelphia", especially given the history of the neighbourhood. Majo Mills Flying fish/Flying fish 03:06, 20 Dec 2004
What's up with deleting the names of Philadelphians that you haven't heard of? As an
example, Ed Bacon is a prominent and well respected urban designer, author of "Design
of Cities" which is still taught in architecture schools and has been influential in
the urban landscape of many cities. I understand that his son, Kevin, has appeared in some movies. Ed Bacon had much more to do with what philadelphia is like today than a cute movie actor who happened to be born there. I'd think that when discussing a major
urban area, someone who had half a century worth of influence on the design of the city is worth listing, more so than a sports player or a musician or an actor.
Images
The picture captioned "Center City Philadelphia" consists of a road with a few buildings in the distance. BO-RING!!! Is this really the most picturesque view anyone could come up with? Apart from anything else the picture could have been taken anywhere that has roads and buildings. Can somebody please replace it with an image that is a) uniquely Philadelphian and b) nicer to look at? Mosquito ringtone Lee M/Lee M 02:04, 11 Oct 2003 ~
:I agree that the picture could be better, it seems rather overcast and drab, though that's how it really looks much of the time, but otherwise this picture does capture the distinctive, east-looking view of the Philly skyline, clearly showing One and Two Liberty Place, City Hall (with William Penn aloft), and so on, not just "a few buildings buildings." It's as distinctively Philadelphian as a NYC skyline shot showing the Empire State building and, formerly, the Twin Towers would be distinctively NYC. So I think it should stay until we get a nicer-looking skyline shot. Although it might indeed be good to have pictures of the Museum as well. There's already an old drawing of Independence Hall, having a new photograph would be redundant. Sabrina Martins 68.162.81.209/68.162.81.209 21:00, 16 Aug 2004
If you're looking for a less boring picture of Philly, why not find a shot of the Philly Museum of Art, or a short of the Rocky statue at the Spectrum, or a shot of Independence Hall? Nextel ringtones Alba/Alba 04:10, 14 Dec 2003
Organization of information
I don't agree with the separation of the lists from the article. The article is less comprehensive without the lists. Abbey Diaz WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 07:08, 13 Dec 2003
Just because the content on Philadelphia isn't all in one overlong page doesn't mean that it's not part of Wikipedia's coverage of Philadelphia. When a page gets very long, it benefits both readers and editors when subtopics and side discussions are broken off into their own page. Wikipedia works through interlinksthe more specific the subjects, the more useful the interlinks are.
For just one example of the benefit, the reason I broke off the lists was that I was looking at the Free ringtones Kevin Bacon entry, and looking at the "what links here" page. By separating Majo Mills List of famous Philadelphians, the "what links here" was changed to make the link to Bacon more specific. The relationship between Kevin Bacon and Philadelphia, as explained by "What links here", is that he is a famous Philadelphian. This is only obvious because the list was separated from the main content.
If Wikipedia was a paper encyclopedia, then it would be true that it would be a good idea to have all the information on Philadelphia organized linearly together.
But Wikipedia is not paper, and by moving subordinate or digressive content to a distinct page everyone benefits.
The Wikipedia coverage of Philadelphia is not only that which is at Mosquito ringtone Philadelphia, Pennsylvaniathe content at Sabrina Martins Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is a starting point. Of course everything needs to be interlinked. It's very true that
:Cingular Ringtones List of major companies in Philadephia/Major companies in Philadelphia include compliance may Aramark, a menstrual GlaxoSmithKline, and analytica was Pep Boys.
is a better way to interlink than
* losers pervs List of major companies in Philadelphia
But please don't wallenberg family The Cunctator/Agglomeration/reconsolidate text that has been separated from an entry of burdensome length. canada economy User:The Cunctator/The Cunctator 04:05, 14 Dec 2003
Its not length, but KB size that is the deciding factor on Wikipedia. After I restore the thing again, please do not touch the article until we are done with the debate. There is nothing more you can expand on "Sports Teams of Philadelphia", for instance, until you get into the teams themselves.
However, you CAN expand on ireland loves Center City Philadelphia, which IS a reasonable division. symbolism a WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 04:38, 14 Dec 2003
It is not KB size that is the deciding factor on Wikipedia, it is quality of the entry. See by venetians m:Wiki is not paper for numerous reasons why it is better to separate content than to merge it into one long entry. airport a The Cunctator/The Cunctator 05:25, 14 Dec 2003
:I agree with both of you, to an extent. This article is too long, but I believe convinced qumran The Cunctator/The Cunctator split it up into too small of chunks. I would be happy to mediate the situation if you so desire. next commissioner User:Noldoaran/—Noldoaran music occasionally User talk:Noldoaran/(Talk) 05:31, Dec 14, 2003
-
1.
I hate "Wiki is not paper" as an argument
:)
it's a truism
2. Nothing has been finalized. Stop touching the main article until we reach CONSENSUS with our peers on this.
allies quit WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:30, 14 Dec 2003
:I did not use "Wiki is not paper" as an argument. If I did so, that would be incorrect, as it is a truism, as Quinlan said. What I ''did'' say is "See nhl as m:Wiki is not paper for numerous reasons why it is better to separate content than to merge it into one long entry." I referred to a discussion, not a four-word truism. in venture The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
I do not appreciate the above out-of-context excerpt of my (frankly, offhand) comments on IRC as a sign of support for one point of view. It does not express my view on this article or this dispute. On IRC, I also said... well, I didn't say much else about why I don't like it as an argument, but I was in the middle of doing laundry at the time. Anyway, if I wanted to leave a comment on this article, I would have left a comment.
To be fair, I also told "Vicious]" (WhisperToMe):
Vicious]: losing your cool never helps
Because I think that is what was happening here, but WhisperToMe didn't quote me on that. For future reference, if you want me to comment on an article, please ''ask'' me next time. machines using Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 06:52, Dec 14, 2003
Yea, if the article does need to be split, we need to figure out what to take out and where to put it.
And Cunc, DO NOT REMOVE the lists until consensus is reached over this. summer zucker User:WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe
:Whisper: don't even revert his changes until you 2 come to an agreement, unless he stops discussing it here. tighten it Noldoaran/—Noldoaran islamic community User talk:Noldoaran/(Talk) 05:45, Dec 14, 2003
I removed the page protection. Sysops should not protect pages they are involved in editing. Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 05:58, Dec 14, 2003
:I protected it because Whisper TOLD ME TO STOP EDITING the page. My protection of it was an implicit agreement with that demand. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
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Whisper, There is no need whatsoever to shout at me. I had two reasons to separate the lists into separate entries:
# Because I believed the lists should be separate entries
# Because I believe the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania entry was too long, digressive, and interrupted by the frequent lists.
Whisper, you evidently disagree with the first, but agree with me that the entry is too long. Please break up the entry in a way you find acceptable.
Reversion without discussion of significant amounts of work which was done in a way in which you do not agree, but is not explicit vandalism, is rude because it takes minimal effort to revert, thus implying that the time and effort spent to do the work was of no worth to you.
But I will accept in good faith that you know of a better way to organize the content and that you find my arguments listed above completely unconvincing.
A proposal: If you fail to break up the entry within the next 24 hours, I will consider that you are unable to find a better way than what I did to break it up, and separate out the lists. I would be happy to work with you to do so if you can convince me why none of the lists merit separate entries.
Noldoaran, please tell me if you think this is a reasonable compromise. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:20, 14 Dec 2003
Instead of having a bunch of small lists, why not have a List of Philadelphia-related topics? Jiang/Jiang / User talk:Jiang/Talk 06:01, 14 Dec 2003
Cunc, you might wanna look at other city articles as an example. New York, New York doesn't have any uber-long lists taken out of it (except for the list of mayors), but information on specific neighborhoods go in specific articles. While the information general to New York is in the New York article, the specific stuff dealing with the actual neighborhoods are in that article.
A better idea, IMO, is to first try to pan off two of the images to the right so that the article doesnt appear to be so large. If the article is still too large, find a non-list section that is extremely well developed, put it in its own article, and then make a brief overview of that article in the main article.
Even better would simply to add content. Perhaps dig up information about which city rivalries Phillies maintain, what cultural practices exist around the city, a detailed look at the road network, and the like.
WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 06:38, 14 Dec 2003
:New York, New York also needs to have the lists redacted. Thanks for pointing that out. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 06:57, 14 Dec 2003
::I suggest coming up with a guideline for which lists should be split out before proceeding to avoid future edit wars. Some of the lists that were split off of Phila seem to be too short to warrant separate articles. Daniel Quinlan/Daniel Quinlan 07:01, Dec 14, 2003
::Yea, perhaps if a certain list can be built on, as in all of the collective members of the list have something in common and can provide a detailed explanation of what they all have in common, perhaps it can be split off.
The Museum list of Houston, Texas has only one on it because the rest of the museums are located in the Houston museum district - the list on the main article excludes museum's in the main district. Perhaps the sites of interest list can be broken up and whatever neighborhoods the sites are, then they are listed there. The site will then be listed next to the neighborhood in the list of neighborhoods. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 07:38, 14 Dec 2003
As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. Wikipedia is not a list repository. Rather, the significant items in some category should be mentioned naturally within the text. For example:
:The '''20th century architecture of New York City''' includes numerous icons of architecture, most notably its striking skyscrapers.
:At the beginning of the century, the city was a center for the Beaux-Arts movement, with architects like Stanford White and Carrere and Hastings. New York's skyscrapers include the Flatiron Building (1902) where Fifth Avenue crosses Broadway at Madison Square, Cass Gilbert's Woolworth Building (1913) a neo-Gothic "Cathedral of Commerce" overlooking City Hall, the Chrysler Building (1929) the purest expression of the Art Deco skyscraper and the Empire State Building (1931) are all skyscraper icons. Modernist architect Raymond Hood and after World War II Lever House began the clusters of 'glass boxes' that transformed the more classic previous skyline of the 1930s. When the World Trade Center towers were completed in 1973 many felt them to be sterile monstrosities, but most New Yorkers became fond of "The Twin Towers" and after the initial horror for the loss of life in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks there came great sadness for the loss of the buildings.
is good;
'''20th century architecture of New York City''':
*Flatiron Building (1902)
*Woolworth Building (1913)
*Chrysler Building (1929)
*Empire State Building (1931)
*World Trade Center (1973)
is poor. Having long lists within the text of Wikipedia entries makes them worse, not better. If a list is too short to need its own page, it should not be written as a list. The Cunctator/The Cunctator 08:13, 14 Dec 2003
Now, that example is a good example of what to do.
Yet, stuff like "List of Philadelphians" or "list of movies filmed at this city" or "list of neighborhoods" (more comprehensive information can be put inside each neighborhood) shouldn't be moved. Sometimes a list and a bit of text (e.g. text explaining the types of industry in a city before listing all of the companies based in the city limits) work out together. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 08:51, 14 Dec 2003
No; lists within entries simply are poor. Specific examples of movies filmed in Philadelphia in a paragraph about such a topic is gooda bare list is bad.
Wikipedia is not a list repository. User:The Cunctator/The Cunctator
"List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms or persons ('''But, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic'''). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into Wikiquote, Wikipedia's sister project."
In this case, the lists are well associated with the topic (being the city itself) WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 23:11, 14 Dec 2003
WhisperToMe - the mention of New York is clearly in the context of cities. Using "New York City" as opposed to just "New York" is unnecessary. John Kenney/john 03:09, 9 May 2004
Oh, and one last thing - The point of using that format was to link to Massachusetts and New York. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 04:46, 13 May 2004
The states ''weren't'' linked to. And why do they need to be? John Kenney/john 05:42, 13 May 2004
Because one shouldn't have to click Boston to then click to Massachusetts when one could simply click Massachusetts. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 22:15, 13 May 2004
But Massachusetts isn't relevant to the article (at least at that point). Nor is New York state. John Kenney/john 05:12, 14 May 2004
Even if they are hardly relevant, it is not a problem to link to them. This is seen all the time on Wikipedia. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:32, 14 May 2004
But it is basically worthless, and ugly. I see no particularly strong reason to do so, and "this is seen all the time on Wikipedia" is not a very good reason. That would be a reason to create links to anything. John Kenney/john 05:36, 14 May 2004
Which is also done, John. Heck, if one figure hardly relevant to the topic in an article is mentioned, it gets linked. E.G. any mention of George W. Bush gets linked to just that - George W. Bush. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:46, 14 May 2004
But there ''is'' and ''was'' no mention of Massachusetts or New York State. There were just links to the cities, which were not piped. John Kenney/john 05:49, 14 May 2004
In the case of cities, Massachusetts and New York state CAN be mentioned, albiet '''only once'''. Also if other countries are involved, "United States" can be mentioned once. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 05:53, 14 May 2004
But why SHOULD they be mentioned? John Kenney/john 06:11, 14 May 2004
Most people I know of on Wikipedia would most likely say yes. I would too. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 06:18, 14 May 2004
I said ''why'' should they be mentioned. Also, please don't pretend to speak for other people. John Kenney/john 16:20, 14 May 2004
When mentioning United States cities, John, one almost always mentions the state on the first mention of the city! E.G. you don't write "The President went to Saint Louis" - You write "The President went to Saint Louis, Missouri", and then write "Saint Louis" after that. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 23:10, 14 May 2004
Not true, depending on context. Per AP style, these cities may stand alone:
In the U.S.: Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Hollywood, Honolulu, Houston, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New Orleans, New York, Oklahoma City, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, D.C.
Internationally: Beijing, Berlin, Djibouti, Geneva, Gibraltar, Guatemala City, Havana, Hong Kong, Jerusalem, Kuwait, London, Luxembourg, Macau, Mexico City, Monaco, Montreal, Moscow, Ottawa, Panama City, Paris, Quebec, Rome, San Marino, Singapore, Tokyo, Toronto, Vatican City.
Lukobe/Lukobe 23:35, 14 May 2004
:Thanks, that's really interesting. (It's a bit odd to see "Washington, D.C." in there, though after all, it DOES have the region name in already!) Marnanel/Marnanel 01:17, May 15, 2004
Note among those cities Boston and New York, the two cities in question. Thanks for the list, Lukobe. John Kenney/john 02:53, 15 May 2004
That threading was completely insane. I reverted it. John Kenney/john 04:55, 15 May 2004
Nick Berg
People from the suburbs of Philadelphia are often identified as being from there. I think Nick Berg should stay. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 00:34, 25 May 2004
:Yeah, OK. But... West Chester isn't really a suburb of Philadelphia. Ike9898/ike9898 16:55, May 25, 2004
Yeah, it's rather far out, isn't it? I think most Philadelphians would not consider someone from West Chester to be a Philadelphian. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 16:59, 25 May 2004
John, West Chester is also part of the Delaware Valley CMSA, as it is in Chester County. There are reports which say Berg is from Philadelphia (which are technically incorrect). Some Philadelphians may not consider him from the city, but outsiders tend to. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 18:41, 25 May 2004
Yes, that doesn't mean it's genuinely a suburb of Philadelphia. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 19:44, 25 May 2004
Again, it is considered a part of the CMSA as it is in Chester County, and Nick Berg himself said "I am from West Chester, Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia" in the decapitation video.
In addition, these sources identify him as from a Philadelphia suburb. It is somewhat far away, but then again, that's urban sprawl for you.
*http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/05/11/berg/
*http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-11-iraq-beheading_x.htm
*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3705409.stm
WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 20:38, 25 May 2004
The US Census isn't the be all and end all. According to the US census, Baltimore and Washington are in the same CMSA, so that one might then say that Harford County, Maryland is in the Washington area. Except that nobody says that. Obviously, the case with West Chester is somewhat different. John Kenney/john '''User_talk:John Kenney/k''' 22:19, 25 May 2004
That's because CMSA's can be divided into separate MSA's. For instance, the BWI area can be divided into "Washington", "Baltimore", and "Hagerstown" MSAs. The Philadelphia area can be divided into the "Philadelphia", "Atlantic City", and "Wilmington" areas. But Chester County is squarely in the "Philadelphia" MSA. WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 22:23, 25 May 2004
:My last word on the subject. The man was not a philadelphian => shouldn't be in the list (he should be on the list of famous West Chestarians!). Or maybe we should start listing candians and mexicans as famous Americans. Who knows? This not important enough to fight over, but it seems pretty clear to me...Philadelphians are from Philadelphia...where's the confusion? Ike9898/ike9898 16:16, May 26, 2004
::People associate the man with Philadelphia, therefore he should be in the list of famous Philadelphians, with the note that he's actually from West Chester. We shouldn't list famous Canadians and Mexicans as famous Americans because nobody considers someone from Mexico City or Toronto to be from America. Lukobe/Lukobe 17:38, 26 May 2004
Center City
Why does it say downtown is "informally" known as "Center City?" That's all it is known as, and all the government literature and city codes refer to the downtown area as Center City. If it has any other name I don't know what it is, so perhaps the "informally" should go. There are of course Philly things that have informal names, such as the Market-Frankford line of SEPTA being informally known as "the El," but Center City is not one of them. 68.162.81.209/68.162.81.209 21:03, 16 Aug 2004
:You made a good argument. I would go ahead and change it if I were you. In case you are new to Wikipedia, you should know that it is ok to go ahead and make a change if you think it will improve the article. If a change is controversial, it might be important to get a consensus first, but I think in this case you could just make the change. Ike9898/ike9898 21:25, Aug 16, 2004
Cutting the Fat
I was looking threw the article, and besides it's over it's size limit i thought that it could be cleaned up a bit. Their are three sections that i believe need to be shortened, moved to their own article or both.
Philadelphia in film and television, i think i brief blurb about the citys importance in the are should be noted under a bigger section about the city's arts and culture, with the main part moving to it's own article.
Famous past and present Philadelphia residents, great list of people, but their problem i see it their are a lot that arent really known well outside of the Delaware valley, and if they are they a bit compartmentalized to their specialty. Propose moving to new article, so can be further expanded as needed, with listing on article of Philadelphians with a world/nationwide appeal, and a link to new article.
List of Philadelphia Neighborhoods, move to a new article with link from page.
Transportation, just kinda blurb it up and add a bit more to it, i.e. bridges, airport, port and stuff, and move to a new article to be expanded further.
Comment would be nice and is requested, for the mean time Ill abstain from any changes, but Ill start on the new articles. Boothy443 / User talk:Boothy443/comhrÚ 10:24, 29 Jan 2005
The "New" article are at Philadelphia in film and television, List of people from Philadelphia, List of Philadelphia Neighborhoods (which needs more cleanup, such asl linking the blurbs with hoods in seperate article), and Transportation in Philadelphia, if anyone wants to take a look, (fyi same as on page). I was also lookig at :Tag: Philadelphia, PA and noticed that that also needs to clean up as well, but i'll get around to that. Boothy443 / User talk:Boothy443/comhrÚ 10:49, 29 Jan 2005
posted @ 5:18 PM
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